Tuesday, October 24, 2006

Heard on WIP

got to give credit when it is deserved. i heard garry cobb mention on WIP this morning that gruden tipped the bucs d about a tendency he saw in the birds. i didn't get to hear the whole thing as i was leaving to head into the office, but the details are on his website.

here are some excerpts:
When the Eagles are in a formation with both receivers flanked out to the same side, they run a double slant when they read a blitz and Donovan hits the outside receiver on the slant route. Well, Jon Gruden knew that so he told his defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin and sure as day when they saw the Eagles come out in the formation with both of the receivers flanked out to the same side, they went to a blitz and had Ronde Barber sucker the Birds.

I don't know what happened on the other interceptions but they were remarkably similar. The two other picks were 15 to 20 yard outs, that is not a coincident. I think Gruden saw something the Eagles were doing that was giving away those deep out routes and he told Monte Kiffin and his cornerbacks and they squatted on those routes and picked those two passes off. Normally when a receiver is running up field and he gets close to a defensive back, that DB has to turn and run with the receiver. Both of Tampa's corners squatted, that's unusual because they had to have known the route the Birds were running. Were those receivers going deep they would have been wide open because the corners didn't turn and run with them. The Eagles are tipping something off and Gruden picked it up.

Yes, McNabb threw the ball but it was the Eagles offensive coaches Andy Reid and Marty Mornhinweg, who were to blame. They didn't change any of their calls and automatics yet they knew there was a guy standing on the other sideline, Jon Gruden who knows their offense as well as they do. That's a lack of attention to detail and it's the reason that the city of Philadelphia is in mourning, today.
this is the kind of stuff that we should be reaming big red about. this is flat out unacceptable. it's the exact same reason the eagles would have lost the 2002 nfc championship game if that had been played. heck, even baseball coaches change their signals from time to time and for big series.

i don't know if this was hubris -- e.g. don't need to gameplan too hard for tampa -- or oversight, but don't tell me this same crap didn't lead into the 3 picks that don threw in jacksonville.

knowing this makes sunday's loss worse. i need a drink.

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22 Comments:

Blogger The Big Dog said...

Good insight, Mean Guy...this is the boneheadedness and stubborness and crap that burns Bumble and myself...arrogance, ignorance, stubborness, lack of attention to detail...and Sean Payton did the exact same thing the week before....it drains the life out of fans who see it, but can't necessarilly put a decent argument up to communicate it....the Eagles organization doesn't have the intangible "it" that it had in earlier Reid-era teams. I think that they are good and will win more games and win big games this year....to this point, I just think that they don't take care of business and I personally detest the offensive and defensive philosophy....they are a good team, not a championship team.

9:55 AM EDT  
Anonymous Phil said...

I don't know. I think for every one of these tendencies that go against us you have the O taking advantage of defensive tendencies. I mean. You're talking about an offense that despite this put up over 500 yards of offense. They must have been exploiting some defensive tendencies, right? Or was the coaching not responsible for any of that?

11:50 AM EDT  
Blogger The Mean Guy said...

arrogance, ignorance, stubborness, lack of attention to detail

see this is where i come across as an andy reid apologist. i think it's neither accurate nor appropriate to use the words "arrogant" or "stubborn" in a discussion about andy reid. seriously. to do so would mean you think he is not acting rationally or doesn't really care about winning. in effect, labeling him as either of those means that he knows there is a better way, but he is choosing not to do it that way.

can we all assume that andy wants to win?

can we also assume that andy probably knows football better than we do?

is he perfect? no, and he should be criticized for getting outcoached on those interceptions, but i fail to see the connection between that and arrogance or stubbornness.

just because we say we want him to run the ball doesn't mean that it is either the best course of action or the way andy should choose to do it.

BTW - did everyone see bill parcells (bastion of "old school" football) start the game by chucking the ball and continue to chuck the ball the whole game? even in situations like 3rd and 1 or 2?

I don't know. I think for every one of these tendencies that go against us you have the O taking advantage of defensive tendencies. I mean. You're talking about an offense that despite this put up over 500 yards of offense. They must have been exploiting some defensive tendencies, right? Or was the coaching not responsible for any of that?

i agree in principle with what you're saying, phil, but the bottom line remains that this has been a repeat offense. we saw a similar blitz adjustment burn us at the end of the carolina NFC championship, resulted in a pick and, if that game had actually been played, we would have seen the same blitz adjustment burn us at the end of the 2002 nfc championship game.

2:17 PM EDT  
Blogger The Big Dog said...

I doth protest. Not only doth I protest, I protest vehemently.....Andy Reid is a stubborn, arrogant guy. I don't necessarilly agree with your label, either. Please try to see this my way for a second...yes, he knows football better than us, but I'm sorry that's his job....and yes, I think he generally does a solid job. I do think he wants to win. A coach does not throw interceptions, fumble the ball, kick the flag, kick tackles in the groin, et al. He should not take the heat for mental mistakes, ever....he only is responsible for prepping the team and putting them in position to win games and handling players....he has been arrongant, in my opinion, but I am sure it is in the opinion of many in 2 areas:
1. He erroneously believes that the Eagles ground game is acceptable. That is various aspects of the ground game including personnel (which he is responsible for), depth, play selection, and ground game strategy. I'm sorry, for over 100 years, the ground game has been a vital part of football offensive philosophy....to simply ignore it and not use it to set up the pass is arrogance.
2. Arrogance with talent evalution...this can be biased, but he has let personnel which may/should have helped the team win pass us by. I look at that from more of an opportunity cost perspective rather than letting dead weight walk perspective...I think for the most part we have let suckers walk (Simon), but may have not be correct with the initial assessments anyway....isn't it strange how once they leave Philly, most of these players fade away, outside of Burgess....maybe they weren't that good to begin with. I think that you are way over-evaluating his talent assessment, way over evaluating it.

And I like Big Red because he's big, fat and has a mustache. I just think he is an arrogant guy and stubborn to a fault which is going to eventually be his downfall in this city.

3:03 PM EDT  
Anonymous Phil said...

Can I protest vehemently as well or would I just look like a copy cat? This is such a repeat offense that you've got to go all the way back 4 years for an example? Really? A much better example would be our inability to run the screen pass anymore. Despite what the commentators said during the game, they haven't run a really good screen game for several years now. Adequate, yes, but nothing to write home about.

Dog, not sure the erroneous tag fits. You're talking about the #1 ranked offense (well, by yards) in the NFL this year. How the heck can you not call the ground game effective? It's not what you or Pete would run, but it is definitely getting the job done.

Regarding the 3rd and 2 passes - 5's accuracy is somewhere around 60% so if he converts on "only" 50% of those 3rd downs, that's top in the league. Again, might not be how you'd do it, but hard to argue against the strategy.

3:30 PM EDT  
Blogger The Big Dog said...

Okay, let me put it this way....do you have total confidence in this team? Do you think that they put teams away? It's the intangible "it". You can stat us to death, but like Pat Burrell's home runs this year, the running stats are "hollow". And running play selection is hollow...it's token...and it's hurting the passing game and it's hurting the defense. They can't run, the teams sit on the pass, they punt, the defense is on the field again. Don't get me wrong, I will take a HR for a TD with a bomb....but that puts the Defense right back on the field. In the 7 games they played this year, have they had a successful running game that set up the pass, outside of occasional big runs that padded stats....when they needed to run...against the Giants being the most obvious example they didn't.
And I'm not criticizing the quick strikes...I will take them, but they can't run and the defense is back on the field. Whatever, I think we'll agree to disagree. I am not in the Bumble-esque bashing mode, I just don't get the warm fuzzy that I need to have like I've gotten in the past, like with the 83 Sixers.

3:55 PM EDT  
Blogger The Mean Guy said...

I'm sorry, for over 100 years, the ground game has been a vital part of football offensive philosophy....to simply ignore it and not use it to set up the pass is arrogance.

not to be flip, but some might call that innovation.

1. He erroneously believes that the Eagles ground game is acceptable.

based on whose assessment? according to objective measures (nfl rankings and football outsiders), the eagles have the number 1 offense in the nfl.

where is the arrogance? honestly.

here is the definition of arrogant:

ar‧ro‧gant –adjective
1. making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud

i fail to see how that applies to reid.

2. Arrogance with talent evalution...this can be biased, but he has let personnel which may/should have helped the team win pass us by.

once again, by every objective measurement (number of probowlers drafter, number of starters obtained in the draft, etc) the eagles are consistently in the top 3 organizations.

can you cite examples of where they have been arrogant in talent evaluation? you even say yourself that the birds have been right with everyone they let go with the exception of burgess, who they let go based on injuries not talent.

from my vantage, the birds base their free agent decisions on cost/benefit, not arrogance.

4:12 PM EDT  
Anonymous Phil said...

Dog, I agree they don't seem to have "it", although I'm chalking it up to luck and not their playing/coaching. FO (most objective analysis) has them moving up 1 spot in DVOA this week to #2 and the highest estimated wins at 6.1.

Again, this doesn't make their path through (or even into) the playoffs any easier, but it goes to how good they are. I guess we're just setting ourselves up for utter frustration for the next 10 weeks. I need another hobby. . .

4:45 PM EDT  
Blogger The Big Dog said...

Guys, please tell me where to purchase this Kool Aid. I am a huge fan, but seriously.....boy I hope that I am wrong, but my dog sense usually is right.

4:55 PM EDT  
Blogger The Mean Guy said...

Guys, please tell me where to purchase this Kool Aid.

i'm drinking kool aid because i don't think reid's failings are rooted in arrogance?

5:05 PM EDT  
Blogger The Mean Guy said...

do you have total confidence in this team? Do you think that they put teams away? It's the intangible "it". You can stat us to death, but like Pat Burrell's home runs this year, the running stats are "hollow". And running play selection is hollow...it's token...and it's hurting the passing game and it's hurting the defense. They can't run, the teams sit on the pass, they punt, the defense is on the field again. Don't get me wrong, I will take a HR for a TD with a bomb....but that puts the Defense right back on the field. In the 7 games they played this year, have they had a successful running game that set up the pass, outside of occasional big runs that padded stats....when they needed to run...against the Giants being the most obvious example they didn't.
And I'm not criticizing the quick strikes...I will take them, but they can't run and the defense is back on the field. Whatever, I think we'll agree to disagree. I am not in the Bumble-esque bashing mode, I just don't get the warm fuzzy that I need to have like I've gotten in the past, like with the 83 Sixers.


big dog, you touch on a lot of things here, and you are understandibly emotional right now, as all eagles fans are, but let's take a step back for a second.

the warm and fuzzy feeling you got from the 83 sixers was because at the time they were one of the 5 best teams in NBA history (some said the best). that was a team that at one point in the season was 50-7. 50 wins and 7 losses. that sick, and it was highly entertaining... but come on, are you really going to hold the eagles to that standard?

are the eagles that good? no, but it doesn't preclude them from winning a superbowl.

the reason they are not winning games is not because of the lack of running game. that's a style issue (even though it is my preferred style). they are not winning games because they are making too many mistakes. i keep repeating this, but i don't see the patriots throwing away their first SB rings because they couldn't run the ball.

i'd like to see more of a commitment to the running game. it's not going to happen, but it's not due to arrogance. it's what andy believes will give the eagles the best chance to win. that's not arrogance either. there are many ways to "skin a cat". just because you and i would prefer more emphasis on the running game doesn't mean that's the right way.

5:10 PM EDT  
Blogger The Big Dog said...

alrighty then, the 83 Sixers jibe was kind of a joke....I know it's a different animal and I don't put all of the blame at the coach's feet because he doesn't play the game....I think he is good and maybe the best we've ever had, but my patience is running a little low with them right now....tons of potential, not as much results as I had hoped for...heard the ESPN ranking of teams and they had the Eagles at 15....come on, this team realistically top 10, maybe even close to top 5...the Saints were 5!!!

8:18 PM EDT  
Blogger The Mean Guy said...

I know it's a different animal and I don't put all of the blame at the coach's feet because he doesn't play the game

please don't get me wrong. i'm not defending them or him. even though i do remain optimistic that they'll put it together in time for the playoffs, ultimately reid must be held accountable for the team's performance -- especially when you consider that he put the whole roster together (i think dawkins and trotter are the only guys who pre-date big red).

my only point through all of this is that i think calling him arrogant isn't accurate and actually diverts attention from the fact that the birds lost because of mistakes (LJ smith pass, stupid penalties) and now thanks to garry cobb we know they got outcoached a little (2 of the picks)... and that means that andy does need to "do a better job".

8:38 PM EDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

New topic-Philly area favorite individual player of all time, favorite individual team-can be pro or college, favorite nickname of all time, and favorite individual play.

My favorite nickname is easiest, has to be Daryl Dawkins. The man dubbed himself "Chocolate Thunder". There is no comparison in nicknames to that one.

Favorite play has to be Randall, getting taken down by Carl Banks, only to catch himself with one hand, get up and toss a TD on the run on MNF. My favorite Birds game ever.

Favorite team was PSU 1986. Shane Conlan, DJ Dozier, Greg Garrity. Playing the heavily favored and overly talented Canes in the Fiesta Bowl. They had no business winning that game, yet rose above all naysayers.

Favorite player is really tough. All time I loved Reggie White-his game was incomparable to any modern D lineman, but he bailed on this city with several good years left. Ryan Howard makes me stop what I'm doing and watch every time he comes to the plate, but he's only done it for 1.5 seasons. I don't like hockey and I am indifferent on basketball, so it has to be a Phil or Bird. I think I need to go McNabb because I credit him most with bringing this team from the ashes and making Sundays fun again. He can run, he can throw, he can win. He ain't perfect and I have bashed his decision making on this very site, but at the end of the day, he is probably the most entertaining weapon we've ever seen here.

Bumble

10:46 PM EDT  
Blogger The Big Dog said...

Wow, I have a slew of favorites...I do love the old-time Flyers...they are still around and just decent guys...you can go up and talk to them and they are friendly and tough as nails (1973-1984 era)

Sixer favorite would have to be Moses Malone...he was a man amongst boys and broke the era of mediocrity and took that 1983 team to the Promised Land

Favorite Eagles---definitely Don, but also Seth Joyner, Wes Hopkins, Keith Byars, Reggie, Jerome Brown, Shawn Andrews, Bill Bergey for his voice and toughness, Jon Runyan, Andre Waters, Harold Carmichael, Jaws, Billy Campfield (first pro athlete to sport the corn row), Vince Papale, Jerry Sisemore, Frank LeMaster, Jerry Robinson, William Fuller, Claude Humphrey, and Hugh Douglass

Phillies--man, I idolized this team growing up, especially Pete Rose....I played first base, used his stance, had his haircut, and would spike the ball after innings...also loved Mike Schmidt, Lefty, Bedrock, Mr. T, Krukker, Inky, the Dude, Dutch, Jim Eisenreich, the Bull (he was the head coach at Holy Cross when I was playing baseball in high school), Bake McBride (for fro and name alone), Jeff Parrett, and John Denny.

Best Nicknames: Chocolate Thunder is good, but I mentioned some other good ones above and have some more....the Bull, the Dude, Inky, Dutch, Lefty, Whitey, Nails, the Beast (Brad McCrimmon), the Hound, Big Bird (Don Saleski), Muddy Waters, Dr. J, and Jaws, the Polish Rifle, and Jughead (actually my friends and called Dave Hollins Jughead)

9:32 AM EDT  
Blogger The Mean Guy said...

mine:

favorite player(s)
- eagles - jerome brown, reggie white, seth joyner
- sixers - charles barkley
- phillies - steve carlton, lenny dykstra
- flyers - mark howe, pelle lindbergh

favorite nickname
- eagles - izell "toast" jenkins
- phillies - "head" (what his teammates called dave hollins)
- flyers - brad "beast" mccrimmon
- sixers - dr. j

favorite team
- 1983 sixers
- 1980 phillies
- 2002 eagles
- 1985 flyers
- 1986 penn state football

10:59 AM EDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Players:

Flyers - Dave "the Hammer" Schultz - when asked at a pic signing who was the toughest to fight, he literally said "None of them really gave me a tough time"

Phillies (before I hated baseball) - Lefty

Eagles - Wolverine - player and nickname favorite

Teams -
1976 Flyers (they were the toughest I can personally remember)

1994-95 Nittany Lions - Should have received the title

- Joe

2:46 PM EDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great topic, Bumble. Remind me to send you my latest over/underrated lists (not necessarily sports).

Player I loved:

Flyers: Rick MacLeish, Pelle Linbeg, Eric Lindros

Sixers: Andrew Toney, AI, Charles Barkley

Eagles: Randall, Jerome Brown, Wilbert Montgomery

Phillies: Steve Jeltz, Jim Eisenreich, Bake McBride

Guys I never liked or detested: Don Saleski, Mel Bridgeman, Dave Poulin, Pete Rose, Greg Luzinski, John Leiber, Bill Barber, Ed Van Impe, Marc Ivaronni, George McGinnis, the Phillie Phanatic.

Ben

8:49 PM EDT  
Anonymous Phil said...

Favorite players: 5, Pete Rose, Desjardin, Dr. J.

Think Dr. J was the best knickname. He was so freakin good they called him the Doctor for crying out loud.

I have 2 favorite plays. The non-Philly one was where the guy jumped out of the stands to catch a PAT. My favorite Philly one was a hockey one where (can't remember the player's name - Jones?) dove for a puck that was going to be icing, flicked his stick at it, and directed it into the goal at an insane angle for a score.

8:54 PM EDT  
Blogger The Mean Guy said...

My favorite Philly one was a hockey one where (can't remember the player's name - Jones?) dove for a puck that was going to be icing, flicked his stick at it, and directed it into the goal at an insane angle for a score.

i believe that was shjon podein

11:00 PM EDT  
Anonymous Phil said...

That was it. Still brings a smile to my face.

9:01 AM EDT  
Blogger Steve72 said...

Favorite Eagle (besides Josh Parry, that is): Brian Dawkins.

Favorite Flyer: Ron Hextall

Favorite Phillie: meh.

Favorite Sixer: meh.

9:57 AM EDT  

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