Bob Ford on McNabb
i don't like the guy's personality. i understand that he has a tendency to throw some low balls from time to time. i noticed that he never shows his real personality in public. it bothers me that he can get down at times when things are not going well. yes, he is not perfect. you know what though? he is a legitimate top 5 QB in the NFL. you cannot overstate the importance of that statement. it is well-nigh impossible to win a SB without top flight QB play and having him on the field gives this team the best shot to win.
i know it's only a stupid AM station, but given the importance that this city places on its professional sports teams, i continue to believe that angelo cataldi is a public menace. by catering to the lowest common demoninator and making them the most vocal part of the fanbase, he has made himself a lot of money... but what did it cost all of us?Why he can't win is another question. Part of the answer is that he hasn't won here, or, more specifically, hasn't won everything. Part of the answer has something to do with his personality, with his contract, with those balls he throws at a receiver's feet, with his facial expressions, with his mom, with his relationship with Andy Reid, with his race. And the vomiting hasn't helped, either.
None of that should combine to keep anyone from understanding how good he is, or giving him the respect his accomplishments deserve, however. He should be able to say, "I wish I could be in there, but I couldn't be happier for Jeff and the team," and be taken at his word.
Instead, the words would be picked apart like an ear of corn attacked by crows, and they would fall like kernels to the ground, seeds for nothing but greater misunderstanding.
McNabb hasn't been able to do everything here, so he isn't allowed to do anything. And seeing that, he chooses to do nothing right now except limp quietly and alone down the hall, keeping his thoughts in the only place they will be safe.
would mcnabb be so guarded with his personality (by most accounts he's pretty likeable in person) if he hadn't gotten boo-ed on draft day by cataldi? would mcnabb have been more relaxed at the superbowl if he hadn't had years of inane scrutiny on the airwaves?
bob ford is right. on the surface, it seems like the city should be having a love affair with this guy -- an all-pro QB. instead, we're left scratching our heads and wondering why we never made an emotional connection... and watching the sheep waiting in line at the forman mills being interviewed on camera as they wait in line for garcia's signature, regurgitating what they heard on the airwaves and taking shots at mcnabb.
Labels: football
posted by The Mean Guy at 9:07 AM
40 Comments:
Quick change of pace...and I agree that McNabb is unfairly criticezed and we are lucky to him....but the Sixers have bought out Webber's contract...having it not be my money I, of course, am happy to see this happen....but what a mess...I read that he is not getting like 5 million of 40 plus for the next season and a half....can you imagine going to your boss and saying that we are losing 35 million and get zero return on it....my god what a waste of money....this alone should get King out of town....I don't know the financials with this and probably never will, but that is paying a lot of money to someone who is not on your roster....while I expect some bright spots over the next few years and a whole new "change of atomosphere"...it was ashame it cost so much to do it
I think it's the fact that Philly loves an underdog and that's not McNabb. We (and by we I mean the city, not me - I'm more pro-5 than anyone on this site) can't root for the favorite. He's the #2 draft pick who has done nothing but win a ton of games. Now if he'd been a 6th round pick with the same stats/accomplishments, I bet he'd already have his statue sitting there next to Rocky.
just lose, baby!
for the first time ever, i am actively rooting against a philadelphia team. it's quite relieving actually. the sixers give me what i want almost every night these days and i find myself tuning in for parts of every game just to see how badly they are losing.
It baffles me too. He's one of the best athletes to ever grace this city. How in the world can their be hand-wringing over the loss of Iverson who was nothing but trouble, while people try to figure out ways the Eagles can trade McNabb and keep Garcia and AJ Feeley.
By the way, if the Eagles run the ball this way next year with No. 5 as the starting QB, I predict big, big things.
I agree with phil that the town loves an underdog. The bizzaro flip side of that seems that the town expects perfection from its superstars. We've had some superstars with serious warts here, but it seems like a certain group of people always want to concentrate on what's wrong with AI/5/Abreu rather than their day-in, day-out production.
I've wondered sometimes what the team would look like with Peyton Manning under center. He's a guy who's really good, but comes up small in the playoffs, and makes faces on the sidelines that would make people forget about McNabb having a towel over his head. Would he get relentlessly ripped by the morning morons?
Bottom line is the dirty thrity and the mentality they represent suck, and give the town and its fans a bad name. I blame the media more for Philly's rep, but the crap Cataldi and his underlings pull doesn't help. And I don't think it's representative of most fans in this town, but who can tell when the squeky wheel is so damn loud.
-Behan
BTW, that's why I like this blog. It proves Philly can have reasonable and fun sports talk.
To follow up on Tom's statement , will the Eagles run like they are now with Mc5 back under center ?? I'm not so sure. Part of our struggles earlier this season were b/c Andy put EVERYTHING on McNabb, and despite the success of our current balanced attack, I fear that with 5 back in the lineup, he may fall back into his old pattern of 65/35 pass/run.
I agree with tmg, we (the city) have never made an emotional connections with Don -- I can's say specifically why, though his publice persona never impressed me, and he got a huge contract before he deserved it (not that he hasn't earned it since then, he has, but I still never liked the fact that he got it so early). The one thing that REALLY pissed me off about McNabb, was that he always made the comment that he didn't want to get labeled as a "running" quarterback, and I feel he sometimes did not use this ability to its maximum effect b/c he feared the label. Screw the label !! Steve Young ran often, and he was only labeled a "winner", and won a superbowl also. Granted, Randall had the label, but a large part of that was a defensive minded coach who just wanted him to "make something happen", but in some ways, even wacky Randall was more likeable than 5. Despite his overall sucess here, Don has never been labeled a "winner". The success, or failure, of this team seems to fall more on Andy than on 5, and the win/loss record of this team when 5 is injured (remove '05 season, that was a cluster) seems to support that. 4-1 with AJ/Koy in 2002 + so far this season with Garcia.... Don't get me wrong, I think our best shot at winning a superbowl is with 5, but I don't know that the emotional connection will ever happen here unless he lets his guard down, and he can't do that without winning a bowl first, or the lowest common denominator here will eat him alive.
I forget what the point of this post was supposed to be as I was interrupted 27 times while writing it, but feel free to respond anyway.
Captain
I think the balanced attack (well, 55/45 anyways) will stay next year as long as Morningwigger is still calling the plays. The only difference is probably that they up the % of deep passes. Though everything changes, albeit gradually. Don't forget that this O used to be based around a lot of screens 4 or 5 years ago. That's dropped once we've gotten some halfway decent WRs on the team.
also, don't forget that the 2003 eagles were pretty well balanced behind the three-headed duce/brian/buck rushing attack.
Captain, as usual, your profoundness is excellent....I think that Don is a likable, yet not fiery guy...who cares about the fire, Don's a great guy and great football player and the best QB on this team. Period. IF they keep this offense balanced, the Eagles have a better chance to win with 5....the only thing, unfortunately, that will make Donovan's life better is a Super Bowl victory and that sucks.
The Garcia worship in this town actually reminds me of a very similar Eagles story. Remember when Randall went down against the Packers at the peak of the Buddy Era (I still hate you, BP)? Remember the nitwit frenzy created by the pedestrian "winner" Jim McMann?
I wish Jeff Garcia all the luck in the world and I appreciate his contribution sincerely. That it seems to be coming at Donovan's expense (no fault of Garcia) is really sad.
I've laughed at the MG in the past for overemphasizing the impact of the "entertainers" hosting the morning borefest on WIP. But after tuning in a couple of times over the last few weeks and paying attention to the mob mentality of the callers, I may be coming around to his side of the argument.
It has to be hard on the pysche of sensitive guys like Donovan to listen to the all the crap. I know athletes claim to play for themselves and their teammates and not necessarily the fans, but I've never completely believed that.
I don't have a fair basis for comparison, but I do listen extensively to the NY media as well Philly's, and by comparison I never hear the same type of inane, senseless garbage that seems designed to tear down athletes unfairly for the sake of building ratings.
The fact that WIP enjoys such ratings success in the market is a (bad) testement to the character of our town.
I've made this point before and I know the gang here thinks the airways overrepresent the dope element in Philly, but I wonder...
Ed Wade
Question. Why do people think 5's "sensitive"? Because he didn't like getting booed on draft day?
I've thought about this a lot and I've decided this whole unfortunate reality with Don just sucks....I don't think he's viewed as a pariah, because I think most people view him as a good guy who, erroneously, can't win the big one...kind of like Elway I guess before he went into saint status by winning 2 Super Bowls....so, what is a "Philly" player....here are some of the qualities that I think this city enjoys....
1. Keep your mouth shut, in general, but take accountablility for mistakes upfront and show a little fire and brimstone when you need to....BUT YOU CAN NOT BE ALOOF!! Be Joe Everyguy
2. You don't necessarilly have to be an adonis physically, but you best make up for it with giving what you have up for the team. For example, diving, slamming into walls, diving for loose balls....
3. Play good defense and not be afraid to mix it up.
4. You don't necessarilly have to be highly skilled per se....as a matter of fact sometimes not doing the right thing...for example having a good eye in baseball is not a highly desired trait....rather than take ball 4 on a 3-2 count 7/10 times, getting the hit 3/10 times and swinging away is highly enjoyed trait....watching called strike 3 is also a no-no, swing the bat, no passiveness!!!
5. Forget being a pretty boy...oftentimes the "California" look is not revered...for example, you have a beard, big biceps and a nice beer belly, but aren't a total waste you are in like Flynn.
6. Be an underdog....have had adversity in your life or a physical ailment.
So, who do I think are classic "Philly" guys...here's a list...they may not necessarilly have all of the traits, but have most of them:
1. Pete Rose
2. Lenny Dykstra
3. John Kruk
4. Pete Incaviglia
5. Dutch Dalton
6. Bill Bergey
7. Reggie White
8. Jerome Brown
9. Dave the Hammer Schultz
10. Bob the Hound Kelly
11. Seth Joyner
12. Jeremiah Trotter
13. Brian Dawkins
14. Mark Howe
15. Brad McCrimmon
16. Paul Holmgren
17. Behn Wilson
18. Brad Marsh
19. Rick Tocchet
20. Steve Bedrosian
21. Wild Thing
22. Tugger
23. Lefty
24. Mr. T Holland
25. Moses Malone
26. Bobby Jones
27. Billy Cunningham
28. Dr. J
29. Mo Cheeks
30. John Denny
Good list. John Runyan and Andre Waters should be on there.
The morning crew is trying to get ratings plain and simple. Putting any stock into what they say is silly. If McNabb and other superstars are truly affected by the drivel, then they are not truly super stars. If Cataldi affects the play of Mcnabb, then McNabb is a stone cold loser. No excuses.
I for one do not think Cataldi has anything to do with Mcnabb's performance. Big Red has a lot to do with it by calling so many passing plays and trying to score quickly vs. grinding out clock. In addition, Don in a West Coast offense is a square peg in a round hole. That offense has the benefit of weak-armed QB who are decisive. Don is neither. I'd go more I formation with play action. Let the guy do what he can do best.
I do however think everyone gives Don too much of a pass and assumes his God given ability and that he is simply the best just because. Truth be told he has sucked in the biggest games-the championship games. He had big yards in the Super Bowl, but he cost them the game with untimely intereceptions, vomiting/cluelessness, and a complete inability to run the two minute drill. He was dreadful vs. Tampa in 2003 and threw a game sealing pick to nemesis Barber. He threw 3 picks vs. Carolina in 2004. Blame Pinky, but he made the same mistake to the same guy 3 times! When the ship was sliding this year, he played small-they needed that Jags game in the worst way and he was awful. He has also been great a lot of times, but he has unfortunately been awful when the national audience is watching and the lights are shining the brightest. I am not sure he can take the big game pressure and I do not believe that he will ever win the championship. He just doesn't seem to have "it" in the clutch. I enjoy watching him play ball, my favorite Eagles Q ever, but they are never going to win the championship with him. They have as good a shot this year as they ever will with Don. Not because Garcia is better, he isn't, but because Don has shown that he drops his play in big games and Garcia didn't do that down the stretch.
Just one guy's opinion, but I am not drinking the "it's everyone's fault but McNabb's" Kool Aid anymore. It's not Angelo, it's not Rhea, it's not Andy, it's not shoddy WR, it's not the heat...so what is it?
Bumble
Putting any stock into what they say is silly. If McNabb and other superstars are truly affected by the drivel, then they are not truly super stars
so you're telling me that you have to be a robot in order to be a superstar? dave, i love you like a brother, but that is ridiculous. i can guarantee you that i don't know a single person who would not be affected by having a guy with a million listeners screaming about how i suck at my job every day. honestly.
I for one do not think Cataldi has anything to do with Mcnabb's performance
you're right. mcnabb has everything to do with his own performance. however, you also want to put people in the best position to succeed. having cataldi on air is not conducive to success. the guy is a cancer in this city.
i've heard you rail about clubhouse cancers on more than one occasion, now think about the worst clubhouse cancer you can and give him no accountability and a megaphone. that's cataldi.
it's pure coincidence, but the fact remains that the last time a team won the championship was the very year before cataldi moved here.
I do however think everyone gives Don too much of a pass and assumes his God given ability and that he is simply the best just because
the numbers say that mcnabb is better than garcia. my eyes tell me that mcnabb is better than garcia. the guys who watch film say that mcnabb is better than garcia.
Truth be told he has sucked in the biggest games-the championship games
and what championship success has garcia had? seriously. you're using the fact that he didn't stink in the three division road games as proof that garcia is clutch? what kind of reasoning is that?
how about this fact? garcia sucked against the giants. if mcnabb had played that game you'd and other mcnabb haters would be railing against him.
i'll re-post the list of what i thought were clutch performances by mcnabb.
- Tampa 2000 - first playoff game. don makes all of the offensive plays in that game, the birds win 21-3
- Giants 2001 - first time don beats giants, remember the sliding thrash catch in the endzone? the giants dominated that game, yet don beat them at the end. luckily i was at this game.
- playoffs 2001 - bucs, bears, rams - don played great in those playoffs. yes, he threw that pick at the end of the rams game, but that was freddie mitchell not coming back to the ball.
- Cardinals 2002 - he plays the game and throws 4 TDs with a broken ankle. please keep in mind that michael vick had the same injury in 2003 and got carried off on a stretcher.
- Falcons 2002 - mcnabb comes back from injury and leads the team to a playoff win
- Packers 2003 - 4th & 26. leads the team to a comeback win in the playoffs against a HOF QB with a team that has it's whole defense out with injury and no offensive weapons
- playoffs 2004 - finally leads the team to the superbowl with an incredible amount of pressure on him to win the nfc championship. loses the SB to a guy who is not only the best defensive mind of his era but also is on a dynasty run
- cowboys 2006 - probably the most pressure packed game of mcnabb's career with me-o coming back into town.
He just doesn't seem to have "it" in the clutch.
in your opinion, who has "it" in the clutch exactly?
BTW - the last time i checked, mcnabb was in the top handful of QBs in "4th quarter comebacks" for QBs that overlap his career.
They have as good a shot this year as they ever will with Don. Not because Garcia is better, he isn't, but because Don has shown that he drops his play in big games and Garcia didn't do that down the stretch.
i hope the eagles win, but the eagles are winning as a team, not because of garcia. what playoff credentials does garcia bring? to me, he looked pretty darn shaky and nervous against the giants.
the last game of every season is a big game. i don't think it's a good argument to pick those games and say "see there's your proof". aside from brady, who's "come up big" in the big games, dave?
I enjoy watching him play ball, my favorite Eagles Q ever, but they are never going to win the championship with him
so you hate him less than you hated every other eagles QB? seems to me like garcia is your favorite eagles QB ever.
The fact that WIP enjoys such ratings success in the market is a (bad) testement to the character of our town.
i think WIP would enjoy great success in any market and other sports stations are moving toward this format. even on this blog, there is more activity when we want to b*tch about something than any other time. i believe it's just human nature.
i think it's a question of radio stations choosing money over integrity. you can put guys who spew hate and nonsense on the radio (limbaugh, cataldi, e.g.) and get great ratings or you can keep guys who keep things balanced on the radio and suffer a little in the bank account.
the fact that stern enjoys great ratings in every market may be a good indicator that the phenomenon is not unique to philadelphia.
BTW - the last time i checked, WFAN who plays it a little more high brow does not have the same kind of market share that WIP does here.
Big Dog -- you are dead on with your analysis here, and you noted 2 of my biggest issues with McNabb : 1. He is somewhat aloof -- not in a goofy way, but aloof nonetheless. 2. Has NEVER showed any fire & brimstone -- not even a little !! I'm not saying you need to be like John McEnroe with everyone waiting for your next blowup, but show something !! A little anger never hurt anyone. I recall Randall geting in a player's face one game when the guy tried to cut him at the knees -- he hopped right up, grabbed the guy by the facemask and was screming at him. I don't ever recall seeing 5 show any anger , ever. He always tries to be the company guy, say the right thing, blah, blah, blah. Boring, no fire -- not our kind of guy. I'm not saying he's not a great QB, I'm still on the emotional connection issue here.
Bumble -- you may be right also. I hate to admit it, but Don has come up small in some big spots. The mean guy and I argued extensively after the Super Bowl about 5 (and I mean RIGHT after the SB, like that night, in Jax), He was drinking the McNabb Kool-aid, I stuck to Miller Lite. I don't recall either of us winning the argument, but it did help us both feel better.
Captain
The mean guy and I argued extensively after the Super Bowl about 5 (and I mean RIGHT after the SB, like that night, in Jax), He was drinking the McNabb Kool-aid, I stuck to Miller Lite. I don't recall either of us winning the argument, but it did help us both feel better.
just to clarify this statement, the argument was specifically, who was most at fault for the SB loss.
the captain's contention was that it was primarily mcnabb's fault. my contention was (and still is) that the o-line was primarily at fault.
mcnabb did not play well that day, but the o-line was downright awful. no QB plays well with bad o-line play -- not even tom brady who sucked the first half of the season while his rebuilt o-line was rounding into shape.
The Garcia worship in this town actually reminds me of a very similar Eagles story. Remember when Randall went down against the Packers at the peak of the Buddy Era (I still hate you, BP)? Remember the nitwit frenzy created by the pedestrian "winner" Jim McMann?
that's a great parallel, ben. in fact, jimbo and garcia are just about the same player at this point in their careers.
big dog, you're john elway mention is timely.
for years, elway was known as the biggest choker ever. all of the sudden, he gets himself a running game and the best o-line coach of all time (alex gibbs) and all of a sudden he's "the best QB ever".
don't tell me that mcnabb will "never win a championship". not when you have cases like elway. cases like cowher winning after 15 years. cases like dilfer winning a title or the steelers winning despite roethlisberger playing like a pee wee QB.
addendum.
your list of athletes is good, but i find it curious that you blast aloofness yet you have steve carlton and mark howe on the list of classic philadelphia athletes.
carlton was the king of aloof athletes and howe (possibly my favorite flyer of all-time) was an in the shadows kind of player too.
Big Dog -
So how does Dr. J fit in with your list?
I think it's the fact that Philly loves an underdog and that's not McNabb
phil, i don't know if it's as simple as that. AI wasn't an underdog and the city loved him.
it's probably a combination of everything guys have mentioned -- underdog, personality, hustle, toughness. what's interesting to me though is that on-field performance is much lower on the list that you'd expect.
this actually ties a lot into some other things i've been thinking about regarding intellectual and emotional decision-making -- e.g. people buy things based on emotional factors and look for reasons to buy one product/service and look for reasons not to buy another product/service.
i try to make my decision-making as emotionless as possible (which my wife find incredibly frustrating), but it gives me good practice in trying to be objective (at least i think it does).
MG you assume this was all in defense of Garcia, it isn't. In fact I only mentioned him once and as a comaprison to say "why couldn't they win it with this guy, he cannot choke any worse than 5 has".
Cataldi is a moron, but he is not a cancer. A cancer has to be internal to the organization. he is an external distraction. Him being on the air should be irelevant to the success of the team.
Garcia sucked last week. If that's who he is in the playoffs, we're done.
But some of your criticisms of my statements are based on your own opinions vs. fact. Barry Bonds is the most hated man in the world. Turn on any sports station in any city and they are crucifying him as the anti-Christ, yet he produces every appearance at the plate. Derek jeter is constantly questioned on the FAN by callers who debate issues like you and Ben did, yet when the big lights come on, he produces. The best players don't wilt because an idiot radio host wants ratings. The Philly fans are stupid and fickle. As soon as Don throws a TD, they forget about the woes. if the guy ever won the big one, he'd own the city. He is still smarting from being booed by 30 guys on draft day. the worst of the worst. That is immature and pathetic. It was 9 years ago! That event will forever shape him. It sucks, but grow up.
And the games you list I will mostly disagree. He didn't do much of anything in the 2004 NFC Championship. Didn't have to, Jim Johnson won that game with a super game plan. He was fine, but it wasn't a banner McNabb day.
You listed a win over the Cardinals? The Cardinals? A regular season win over the worst franchise in the NFL? Who cares that he had a broken leg, it was the freakin' Cardinals. It was mid season too. that wa sjust another win and in fact he probably did worse damage playing on the leg.
Mcnabb sucked vs. Atlanta 2002 playoffs. He was just back from injury, but he was not good that day.
You pick and choose moments where he was only OK or the game wasn't as meaningful. Game 1 of the playoffs is not the same as the championship game. When the pressure is on, he pukes and then struggles.
I am not saying Garcia for president. I expect and want Don to start the second he can. That said, the team hasn't missed a beat without him and even looks better in many ways, so is he as vital to this team winning the big one as assumed? Could they win without him? Given his so-so performances in the biggest games, isn't it possible that they can do as well without him as they would have with him. Does the West coast offense need to be spending $10 mill a year on a QB?
I know, I know, I tread on thou holiest McNabb and here it comes back in my grill, but I won't relent. The guy plays small in big games. I like McNabb and enjoy what he can do, but football is no fun in this town on those weeks he drops a stinker and doesn't show up (see Jacksonville this year, Dallas game 1 2005, every time he plays Tennessee)
Elway played small in championship games and his Superbowls were Tereell Davis's, not his own.
Some QB who played big in big games
1. Brady
2. Aikman
3. Young
4. Montana
5. Simms
6. Fouts
7. Bradshaw
Bumble
MG you assume this was all in defense of Garcia, it isn't.
that's not how i took it at all. i took it as an attack on mcnabb using garcia as a comparison "They have as good a shot this year as they ever will with Don."
for what purpose i can't figure out. what is it that you want, bumble? i asked you to name who you'd rather have QB'ing the team, who is more clutch, and you came back with a list of retired guys. what is it that you want?
is mcnabb going to make the hall of fame? who knows? he may end up with his trophy or he may not end up with his trophy. it's ludicrous to say he's never going to win one.
"that's why they play the games"
you put me in the position of defending mcnabb because i find your basis for attacking him irrational. there are tons of athletes who finally won a championship and turned around their previous rep as chokers.
your own list is full of them:
- bradshaw - was killed in pittsburgh for years. too dumb to play. not accurate enough. a choker. was almost run out of town.
- young - do you forget how he started his career? talented yet enigmatic. a loser QB. sat behind montana and finally learned how to play QB. was considered a choker after he took over since he couldn't win a SB. finally won toward the end of his career.
- simms - was considered a bust at the start of his career. the year the giants won their first SB he threw 22 picks. 22 picks!
- fouts - what did he win, exactly? i recall him being one of those QBs who could never win the big one.
i just don't understand how you make the issue so black and white? why even watch the team if you know what's going to happen? just because i'm put in the position of having to defend him doesn't mean that i think he's god. jeez, i don't even like the guy, i just recognize that by almost every measure he's one of the best QBs in football today.
competition includes the possibility of losing. just because someone loses once doesn't mean they will always lose.
But some of your criticisms of my statements are based on your own opinions vs. fact.
can you cite which ones so i can respond?
Derek jeter is constantly questioned on the FAN by callers who debate issues like you and Ben did, yet when the big lights come on, he produces
come on. you're seriously going to compare the occasional questioning jeter gets on pro-NY sports radio to the reaming mcnabb gets daily on WIP?
derek jeter's lifetime batting average is .317. his lifetime batting average in the postseason? .314 his lifetime batting average in the world series? .302
That is immature and pathetic. It was 9 years ago! That event will forever shape him. It sucks, but grow up.
i don't think anyone has defended him on this. we all agree that he is overly sensitive (except for phil). so what? you want to dump him for this?
I know, I know, I tread on thou holiest McNabb and here it comes back in my grill, but I won't relent
you're coming on so strong with your anti-mcnabb statements that i feel compelled to defend him just for balance. i wish you wouldn't make this so black and white either. you don't have to love mcnabb or think he's a hall of famer to understand that he's the best shot at winning this team has.
to write him off completely and say that "they're never going to win with him at QB" at this point is premature and frankly pointless imo.
"Barry Bonds is the most hated man in the world. Turn on any sports station in any city and they are crucifying him as the anti-Christ, yet he produces every appearance at the plate."
Depends on which plate apprearances you're counting, Dave. Mr. Bonds has enjoyed post-season success only one year. Otherwise, he's shrivelled up like kind of like his steriod drinking testes. He's hardly been the best player I've ever seen when it counts the most. In fact, he's been a far worse "red light" player than Donovan McNabb.
Bad example.
Ed Wade
Phil said...
Question. Why do people think 5's "sensitive"? Because he didn't like getting booed on draft day?
Since I'm the one who said it, let me respond.
I think 5 is "sensitive" because I think he is a decent, intelligent human being. In my world, this is a good thing (I'm not saying it isn't in your world).
Guys like Barry Bonds don't give a shit about anyone else or what anyone else thinks about them and therefore cannot be affected by unfair criticism, etc. I guess this is a good thing in a way (as it relates to performance under hostile conditions), but I prefer rooting for good people. I'm silly that way.
Before someone calls me on it, I'll stipulate that there is room in my heart for PURE assholes because rooting for COMPLETE dopes can be ironically fun.
Ed Wade
"derek jeter's lifetime batting average is .317. his lifetime batting average in the postseason? .314 his lifetime batting average in the world series? .302"
Ping, are you now suggesting that Jeter's performance "falls off" in the post season?
I hope not.
Ed Wade
the numbers are what they are. what they mean is subject to interpretation. i think one of the things they mean, especially considering large number of playoff games he's played, is that his performance remains consistent in the regular season and the playoffs. a good trait considering pitching is better in the playoffs.
jeter had some incredibly clutch performances, especially early in his career, and that cemented his reputation. it doesn't matter what he does for the rest of his career.
"a good trait considering pitching is better in the playoffs."
Egad, what an understatement, but thanks for acknowledging the obvious. We really need to catch some games together this year.
Ed Wade
Ugh this is frustrating. I obviously do a piss poor job explaining myself. Let's reiterate.
1. McNabb is my favorte Birds QB ever.
2. I personally think he lacks the intestinal fortitude to win the big one because he has struggled badly in that spotlight.
3. Because of that, I ask why they can't win this year with a backup since the worst he can do is the best that McNabb has done in the same position.
4. But as I have restated repeatedly, once 5 can come back, the job is his as it rightfully should be. I will enjoy watching him try to win it all again, but I will always wonder in my heart that he won't be able to climb that mountain. Maybe that's less about McNabb and more about my Philly defeatist attitude where I doubt any of us will ever see a championship in our life time.
Doesn't mean I won't root for him as hard a s human being can while my daughter sits by my side bedecked in her 5 jersey (we have purchased 3 in her short life and will keep buying them as long as he plays). I want this guy to win it all and own the city, but facts and experience tell me he won't. Doesn't mean I hate him, just means I don't believe he has "it". My original point.
There is only one QB who I'd rather have now and he wears 12 in New England. That guy is clucth and more talented than Donny, but that is it.
Ben by the by, I know you want to play both sides of the coin and mix it up on both sides of the issue and that's cool, it makes for fun reading furthers the debate, but to say that McNabb fares better in the red light than Bonds is a stretch. That is to say McNabb has fared well in the position and he really hasn't. I would call it a draw at best. So your "bad example" barb seems premature.
Incidentally, I enjoy debating on this site. MG I hope you know that I enjoy poking the bear and getting your A game, I am certainly not trying to insult your opinion or knowledge. It shakes up the routine that can be the work week. Ed Wade I like to discuss these points after post with you. This is enjoyable stuff for me.
Bumble
Mean Guy,
Different topic but I was wondering if you could post this as a forum as I am curious what everyone thinks on what I think is a unique topic.
You are the GM of one of the 4 Philly teams. What do you do to clean up, become a winner, and win a championship. I want detail as to what people think ails each franchise and how they would address those issues.
Or the topic may suck.
Bumble
"Ben by the by, I know you want to play both sides of the coin and mix it up on both sides of the issue and that's cool, it makes for fun reading furthers the debate, but to say that McNabb fares better in the red light than Bonds is a stretch."
Dave, it's absolutely fair for you to imply that I like to play both sides of issues for no apparent reason other than entertainment.
But not this time. I basically said that Barry Bonds (with the exception of one year, 2002 by the way) has SUCKED in the post season. He's a helpful link. I'll let you draw your own conclusions after a quick review:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml
Let's go Eagles!!!
Ed Wade
Ben I counter with this, McNabb's playoff career stats. 59% completion rate, 18 TD and 12 picks. 6 games below 200 yards. Pretty pedestrian. I'll at best call him vs. Bonds a push
Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
2000 tam W,21-3 | 24 33 161 2 1 | 8 32 1
2000 nyg L,10-20 | 20 41 181 1 1 | 5 17 0
2001 tam W,31-9 | 16 25 194 2 1 | 4 57 0
2001 chi W,33-19 | 26 40 262 2 1 | 8 37 1
2001 stl L,24-29 | 18 30 171 1 1 | 4 26 1
2002 atl W,20-6 | 20 30 247 1 0 | 4 24 0
2002 tam L,10-27 | 26 49 243 0 1 | 3 17 0
2003 gnb W,20-17 | 21 39 248 2 0 | 11 107 0
2003 car L,3-14 | 10 22 100 0 3 | 2 10 0
2004 min W,27-14 | 21 33 286 2 0 | 3 3 0
2004 atl W,27-10 | 17 26 180 2 0 | 10 32 0
*2004 nwe L,21-24 | 30 51 357 3 3 | 1 0 0
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
TOTAL | 249 419 2630 18 12 | 63 362 3
P.S. Which Philly team disappoints us next? Will it be the Phils with their usual 8-16 April start that buries them? The Sixers winning enough to lose out on Oden? The Sixers losing enough to get Oden only to miss that dreaded ping pong ball? The Flyers for being the laughing stock of the NHL?
Bumble
"I'll at best call him vs. Bonds a push"
Bumble -
I'm reasonably certain you didn't follow the link to take a close look at Barry Bond's career playoff statistics. Either that or you're just jerking my chain for your own amusement.
Even if you were to somehow conclude that McNabb's "pedestrian" numbers somehow equated to Bond's PATHETIC numbers, how about weighing in the fact that Barry Bonds is arguably the best baseball player who ever lived (and in the top three no matter how you evaluate things). Donny is a dandy player, but you couldn't find a living soul who thinks he is to football what Barry is to baseball. Outside of 2002, Barry has done NOTHING in the playoff that you wouldn't expect from a guy of say David Bell's ability.
Donovan vs. Barry in the post season is a push? Are you kidding me? I know you've watched all of Donovan's playoff games. Have you watched ANY of Barry's? For your comparison to work, Donovan's completion percentage would need to be about 50% and the TD/IND ratio would need to be reversed.
Ed
I will buy the best player argument much more than the numbers argument. That makes more sense to me in comparing the scope of what these men mean to their respective sports. Bonds will unfortunately be remembered as one of the 2-3 best ever and McNabb will be just another QB. I buy that more.
And you know what, after last night's 4th quarter by 7, I will never remotely question Don again.
Bumble
P.S. Ben-I did look at Bonds numbers. a few terrible years no doubt, but several years at .250 or better and great OBP. Pedestrian, similar to Don-some good years, some lousy years. I think the compare numerically is valid enough to warrant comparison rather than your blanket statement of how they aren't in the same galaxy. Just one guy's opinion.
But Don will be better in 2007. I have to have hope in something in this town.
Bumble
"P.S. Ben-I did look at Bonds numbers. a few terrible years no doubt, but several years at .250 or better and great OBP."
Take a good look at the power numbers, big fellow. Notice the drop off? Barry's a power hitter.
It's all in how you read the numbers. Yes he is a power hitter and that part of his game lacked, but it hasn't been a complete tank outside of 3 ugly years. McNabb had some nice post seasons too, but some lousy games that really cost them.
Let's move on as I am tired of having this conversation.
Bumble
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